Federal leaders debate 2019: Full transcript
TABLE OF CONTENTS
THEME ONE: LEADERSHIP IN CANADA AND THE WORLD
THEME TWO: POLARIZATION, HUMAN RIGHTS, IMMIGRATION
THEME THREE: INDIGENOUS ISSUES
THEME FOUR: AFFORDABILITY AND INCOME SECURITY
THEME FIVE: ENVIRONMENT AND ENERGY
THEME ONE: LEADERSHIP IN CANADA AND THE WORLD
Lisa LaFlamme: Welcome to the 2019 leaders debate. I’m Lisa LaFlamme from CTV News, and I am one of the moderators tonight. Our audience is made up mostly of undecided voters gathered here in the round so they’re right at the heart of this important night. One note, however: we have asked them to hold back their applause throughout the debate so we can keep things moving. And just a couple of more things to know before we get started. We’re going to tackle five major themes tonight based on the questions Canadian voters want asked and debated. There were more than 8000. So the themes tonight reflect those questions. The leaders will answer them based on an order selected in a random draw. We all want a meaningful debate tonight. Viewers want answers, so the leaders have all agreed to respect the time they are allowed tonight. And believe me, we will all make sure they do.
Our first theme is leadership in Canada and the world, and our first question is from Reagan Lee (ph) right here in the audience. Regan.
Question: Good evening, leaders. Sorry. Many Canadians have felt the implications of a divided world, more so than 2015, from US protectionism to Brexit to our growing tensions with China. As Prime Minister, how would you effectively defend both the interests and values of Canadians on the world stage? Thank you.
Lisa LaFlamme: Reagan, thank you for that. And Mr. Trudeau, you are first to respond tonight. You have 45 seconds.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: Thank you, Reagan, for being here tonight, and thank you all for joining us in this important moment to talk about the future of our country and compare and contrast the various plans that we have.
We know we live in a very challenging time right now, from protectionism to fear-based politics to the transformative technological change people are facing. We need to make sure that Canadians are equipped and tooled to be able to succeed in an uncertain world, and that’s why, over the past four years, we’ve invested directly in Canadians, helped people be optimistic about their future, have the tools to succeed and the tools to see their kids succeed. We know the environment is a massive and pre—pressing challenge, and building a stronger economy for the future means protecting the environment for the future as well. These are the things we’re going to be talking about tonight.
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Trudeau, thank you for that. Mr. Bernier, your opportunity to respond.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Thank you. We are the People’s Party, and we put Canada first. The other leaders on this stage are globalist. They spend your money to buy a seat at the UN Security Council, and also, they are giving your money to other countries to fight climate change in Asia and build roads in Africa. The UN is a dysfunctional organization, and we must be able to fight for our country. Actually, we are the only party that will have a foreign policies that is based on our security and prosperity for our country.
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Bernier, thank you. The next opportunity for Mr. Singh to respond.
Jagmeet Singh: Thank you very much, Lisa. Thank you very much, Reagan, for your question. It’s – I know it’s tough to ask questions in front of a big crowd, so thanks for doing that. And thanks to Canada for joining and taking part in this discussion.
To me, leadership is about who you’re fighting for, the choices you make, and whether you’re doing what’s right for people. And whether it comes to international affairs, standing up to Trump, making sure we fight to build better trade agreements that actually put Canadians first, for me, the question really comes down to do you have the courage to stand up to the powerful and wealthy interests, the corporations that are having too much influence of Canada. And I’ve seen so far in Ottawa, whether it’s Liberal or Conservative governments, they haven’t had the courage to stand up and fight for people. We’re different. We’re in it for you. I don’t work for the rich and powerful; I work for people.
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Singh, thank you. Mr. Scheer, your opportunity to respond.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Well, thank you very much. And of course I will always stand up for Canada and Canadians’ interests and promote free trade and defend our interests all around the world. But Justin Trudeau only pretends to stand up for Canada. You know, he’s very good at pretending things. He can’t even remember how many times he put blackface on. Because the fact of the matter is he’s always wearing a mask. He puts on a reconciliation mask and then fires the Attorney General, the first one of Indigenous background. He puts on a feminist mask and then fires two strong female MPs for not going along with his corruption. He puts on a middle class mask and then raises taxes on middle class Canadians. Mr. Trudeau, you are a phoney and you are a fraud, and you do not deserve to govern this country.
Lisa LaFlamme: There will be an opportunity later, during the open debate, to defend each other. First of all, Ms. May, if you’d like to answer mi—Reagan’s question.
Elizabeth May: I would actually like to answer Reagan’s question, in contrast to what we just heard. But I want to start by acknowledging that we’re on the traditional territory of the Algonquin peoples, and, to them, megwitch.
Canada’s role in the world is an enviable one. We have a historic reputation for being an honest broker, for being a country that stands up for multilateralism. We have a commitment as a nation to meet the Sustainable Development Goals, which means our future as a world is built on ending poverty and encouraging the education of women and girls. That’s a cornerstone. On top of that, we really need to renegotiate the World Trade Organization and make it an organization that promotes climate action. We need a World Trade and Climate Organization. We need to support the rule of law and human rights around the world because we are world leaders.
Lisa LaFlamme: Ms. May, thank you. Again, the question: how would you, as Prime Minister, protect Canadian interests and values on this changing world stage. Mr. Blanchet.
Yves-François Blanchet: Prime Minister is a bit unlikely. However, first, good evening, everybody, and thank you for having me in – on behalf of the Bloc Québécois.
Having leadership, or showing leadership, sometimes mean not making mistakes. And arresting the Chief Financil—Financial Officer of Huawei might have been a big mistake, for which farmers growing soya or those doing pork or beef might have paid the price. When you’re facing a powerful foe like China, you don’t try to show biceps if you have only tiny biceps. and this is something that has to be learned. And we would support somebody with real leadership, not making mistakes.
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Blanchet, thank you for that. Continuing with our theme, leadership in Canada and the world, it’s now my opportunity to ask a question on behalf of Canadians, again to a leader chosen by a random draw. So this question is for People’s Party Leader Maxime Bernier. Every other leader will then have the opportunity to debate him. But Mr. Bernier, you like to tweet, so let me read some of your tweets back to you. You called diversity in Canada a cult and extreme multiculturalism. You’ve used the words ghetto and tribes to describe newcomers whom you say bring distrust and potential violence. On Greta Thunberg, the 16-year-old climate change activist, you called her, quote, clearly mentally unstable. Are these the words of someone with the character and integrity to lead all Canadians and represent us on the world stage?
Hon. Maxime Bernier: First of all, thanks for the question. You must tell the truth to Canadians if you want to be the leader of this country. And what I’m saying about extreme multiculturalism, it is not the way to build this country. Yes, this country is a diverse country, and we must be proud of that, but we don’t need the legislation like the Multiculturalism Act to tell us who we are. We are a diverse country, and we are proud of that.
What I’m saying, because it’s in line with the immigration, I’m saying that we must have fewer immigrants in this country to be sure for these people to participate in our society. So it is a great country, but it’s time to have a discussion about the immigration. We don’t want our country to be like other countries in Europe, where they have a huge difficulty to integrate their immigrants. And I’m a proud Canadians, and that’s why I love this country, and I’m on – the only leader on this stage who wants to have a discussion about the level of immigration.
Lisa LaFlamme: So we’re definitely going to have a lively debate tonight because now it is Mr. Singh’s opportunity to debate Mr. Bernier on that very question, the temperament required for a good leader.
Jagmeet Singh: I mean, Mr. Bernier, after hearing what was just said, you could have just said hey, man, I messed up. Because those are pretty horrible tweets that you made. And really, for me, I mean, it should come as no surprise to you I believe a leader is not someone who tries to divide people or to pit people against each other. A true leader is someone who tries to find bridges, bringing people together. That’s what a leader does. And a leader works for the people who need help, not helping those at the very top, which we’ve seen with governments in Ottawa for far too long. They’ve been working to make life easier for the multi-billionaires. They get massive corporate tax cuts. Billions of dollars go towards them. We see offshore tax havens continue. This is not the way to build a country.
Jagmeet Singh: The way to build a future is to help Canadians (crosstalk) need help. (Crosstalk).
Hon. Maxime Bernier: (Crosstalk) you want to help – if you want to help Canadians (crosstalk) you won’t be able to help Canadians with your socialist policy. It will –
Jagmeet Singh: It’s not going to help anybody.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — it will hurt everybody.
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Singh.
Jagmeet Singh: It’s not going to help anybody.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: It will hurt everybody. It’s not the way to –
Jagmeet Singh: What you’re going to do is not going to help anybody.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Weal—wealth and growth in this country. You must believe in people.
Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Bernier —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: You must give back their money in their own pockets.
Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Bernier, you’re not (crosstalk) people. What you’re saying is not helpful.
Lisa LaFlamme: I’m just – I’m just going to remind everyone this is a debate, and the viewers do have a difficult time even hearing anything if you’re talking over each other. So this is a portion where the leaders can debate Mr. Bernier, and it is now the opportunity of Mr. Scheer to debate Mr. Bernier on the question of leadership.
Andrew Scheer: Well, what Mr. Bernier fails to understand is that you can absolutely be proud of Canada’s history, you can be proud of our identity, you can be proud of the things we’ve done and accomplished in the world, while at the same time welcoming people from all around the world. And that is something that has made Canada strong. People come to Canada because of our freedom – our freedom to do what we want —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Absolutely, Andrew, you’re right. You’re right.
Hon Andrew Scheer: — to be – to – to believe what we want, and freedom of speech.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: And that’s why I want people to come to share our values, our Canadian values.
Hon Andrew Scheer: But you know, this —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Equality before the law —
Hon Andrew Scheer: — this —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — equality between man and woman.
Hon Andrew Scheer: But you – this —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: The separation of (crosstalk) —
Hon Andrew Scheer: Mr. Bernier, you have —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — and the (crosstalk) —
Hon Andrew Scheer: — you have changed – you have changed from someone who used to —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — who have support it. We want people to come here to share our values —
Hon Andrew Scheer: — believe – who used to believe —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — (crosstalk).
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Bernier, we’ll —
Hon Andrew Scheer: — in an immigration system —
Lisa LaFlamme: — we’ll let Mr. Scheer —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Yeah.
Lisa LaFlamme: — ask you question.
Hon Andrew Scheer: You have gone from someone who used to believe in a immigration system that was fair, orderly, and compassionate, and now you are making your policy based on –
Hon. Maxime Bernier: No.
Hon Andrew Scheer: — trying to get likes and retweets —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: No.
Hon Andrew Scheer: — from the darkest parts of Twitter.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Absolutely not.
Hon Andrew Scheer: We can be a country that —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Absolutely not.
Hon Andrew Scheer: — celebrates the contribution from people from all around the world.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: That’s what I want to do. I want to celebrate what —
Hon Andrew Scheer: It’s important – it’s important —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — unite us. I don’t want to celebrate (crosstalk) —
Hon Andrew Scheer: You can do that.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — on diversity.
Hon Andrew Scheer: You can do that without —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: We need to celebrate (crosstalk) —
Hon Andrew Scheer: — insulting people —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — to celebrate who we are —
Hon Andrew Scheer: — people who have come to this country.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — and we’re not doing that (crosstalk).
Hon Andrew Scheer: That is the difference between Mr. Bernier and myself on this issue. We believe – we believe in making Canada stronger by welcoming people, adding it to our country, and celebrating the things that have made us great as a nation.
Lisa LaFlamme: Now we’re going to hear from Ms. May and Mr. Bernier, on the same question.
Elizabeth May: As I understand the question, Lisa. It was also about the characteristics of leadership. So let me just say up front I think leadership is service. I think the things that – that make a good Prime Minister is recognizing that we’re public servants. We haven’t won some kind of lotto. We don’t get to lord it over everybody. We’re here as your employee, and we want to work. And I have a little quibble with our introduction tonight saying who will get invited back. It’s not to be invited to go to Parliament; it’s to sign up to work and to be a public service. I believe in service leadership.
That said, I find the things that – that Maxime Bernier has said to be completely appalling, and – and he knows that I feel that way about the things he says in the House. We used to sit together. And generally, when he said anything —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Elizabeth – Elizabeth –
Elizabeth May: — I’d have to put my head in my hands —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Elizabeth —
Elizabeth May: — because it was so horrific. But —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: I – I appreciate you, but you know, I don’t share your policies.
Elizabeth May: I knew that.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: I don’t share your socialist policies because, you know, we – we won’t be able to create any wealth with your policies. You have the same kind of policies in socialist countries like Venezuela. That won’t create any wealth.
Elizabeth May: Well —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: You must admit that.
Elizabeth May: No (crosstalk) —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: You will spend —
Elizabeth May: — the climate crisis —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — $60 billion.
Elizabeth May: — is the single biggest —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: That’s your promises —
Elizabeth May: — economic opportunity —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — $60 billion (crosstalk) —
Elizabeth May: — in a generation or more.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — that’s not responsible.
Elizabeth May: And supporting immigration is what we need for this economy.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: And I’m support immigration. I support —
Elizabeth May: I’m proud of the fact that the European Greens —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: You are not (crosstalk) —
Elizabeth May: — are the only party that would grow immigration, and so are we.
Lisa LaFlamme: Thank you, Ms. May. Now it is Mr. Blanchet’s opportunity to debate with Mr. Bernier.
Yves-François Blanchet: How many seconds will we – will you leave me before you jump in? Somebody invoking the truth should not be somebody denying climate change. And the use of socialism seems to come a little bit too easy.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: I don’t deny climate change.
Yves-François Blanchet: Oh, you make —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: I don’t —
Yves-François Blanchet: — ten seconds. (Laughter). Immigration —
Lisa LaFlamme: See? And we worried they wouldn’t pay attention.
Yves-François Blanchet: Immigration is not that much a matter of number; it’s a matter of resources. We invest in it in order to have those persons welcome as well in Canada as they are in Quebec, with our desire for them to share our language, to share some of our values. And if we do have enough resources invested in that, this is workable. And you do not do it by saying or sending the message that they are not welcome —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: No, everybody is —
Yves-François Blanchet: — here in Canada or in Quebec.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — welcome in – everybody is welcome in this country. And you know, 49 percent of all population believe that we must have fewer immigrants. They’re not racist, they’re not radical. So what you are saying, because I’m in line with the majority of our population, that I’m supposed to be a radical?
Yves-François Blanchet: Did anybody tell you —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: No. We have the right – we have the right in this country —
Yves-François Blanchet: Did anybody tell you that your ancestors —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — to debate ideas, and that’s what I’m doing.
Yves-François Blanchet: — were immigrants also?
Hon. Maxime Bernier: We have the right —
Yves-François Blanchet: We all are immigrants.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Absolutely. And we are proud. We are proud Canadians.
Lisa LaFlamme: OK, and the final debate on this subject goes to Mr. Trudeau, to Mr. Bernier: again, the temperament required for a good leader.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: I think it’s important to recognize that we’re in a world right now where these discussions, this polarization, this fear of the other, has become easy currency for politicians who do want to strike up uncertainty in people’s hearts and lift those anxieties and try to get people to vote against things.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: No.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: Unfortunately, Mr. Bernier on this stage is playing that role of trying to – to make people more fearful about the migrations that are happening in the world and the opportunities around globalization and our ability to continue to redefine every single day what it is to be Canadian, what it means to be Canadian. And yes, it will evolve.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Monsieur Trudeau —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: It will transform itself as we – as we —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Mr. Trudeau —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — take leadership, as we move forward. And the values (crosstalk) —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: You always (crosstalk) —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — are universal values (crosstalk) —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — diversity.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — people around the world (crosstalk) —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: We must celebrate our history. We must celebrate who we are. And I’m proud Canadian like you. And you know, we built this country together, and we want this country to be like that in 25 years. We love this country, and it’s not because I want to have a discussion about immigration that I’m a radical.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Bernier —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Only six percent —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — your role on this stage tonight seems to be —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — only six perc–
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — to say publicly what Mr. Scheer thinks privately.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: No. Only six percent of our – six percent of Canadians wants more immigration, only six percent. So when you don’t want to have a debate about that, you’re not in line with the population. You just have unask—an unasked debate on that subject.
Lisa LaFlamme: OK. And on that, we want to hear from another Canadian tonight. There are obviously so many layers to the issue of leadership. So this question is coming from Susan Fernando (ph), who asks her question from Calgary. Again –
Question: Hi. I’m Susan Fernando in Calgary. More often than not, the provincial governments and federal government are on different wavelengths, no matter what the political party. Cooperation is key when it comes to issues of pensions, workers’ rights, to education and health care. As Prime Minister, how would you demonstrate strong leadership when working with the provinces and territories?
Lisa LaFlamme: OK, thank you, Susan Fernando from Calgary. Again, based on a random draw, this goes to Mr. Bernier first, and then every other leader will have the chance to answer. Mr. Bernier.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: First of all, I will respect the Constitution. I will respect provinces, and that’s very important. And I won’t interfere in provincial jurisdiction. I won’t interfere in health care because it is a provincial jurisdiction. And you know, we cannot in Ottawa solve the challenges that we’re having for health care. And what we can do, we can transfer the money to the provinces. And what I will do, I will let provinces being able to deal with health care and with education. That’s our Constitution. We’ll transfer the GST so provinces will have the money to deal with that and they will be able to answer to your challenges.
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Bernier, thank you. It’s now Mr. Singh’s opportunity to respond to Susan’s question.
Jagmeet Singh: Thank you. I want to thank Susan for the question. Really she’s touched on a lot of concerns that Canadians have. Things are getting harder than ever before, and she touched on a whole host of issues: pensions and – and health care. I want to talk – I want to single in on health care. To me, that’s one of the biggest concerns I hear about when I meet with people across this country. And I think of the people that I meet, you know, the young boy that I met that has a chronic illness and has to pay for – his family has to pay for medication and injections and blood work. And he told me he’s not worried about the illness but he is worried about being a burden to his mom and dad. So that young person, Mr. Trudeau is saying, you know, you’re not worth universal pharmacare, that the big pharmacare companies – the big pharmaceuticals are more important. I want to say to that young person, with a New Democratic government, we will bring in universal pharmacare for all. You would use your health card, not your credit card, for medication.
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Singh, thank you. Mr. Scheer, it’s your opportunity now.
Hon Andrew Scheer: Well, Conservatives have always recognized the importance of working with provinces. We respect provincial jurisdiction. But we also understand that it will take federal leadership to get certain things done, like interprovincial free trade, something that Mr. Trudeau has failed to accomplish.
But one thing I can promise voters across the country is that Premiers won’t have to take a Conservative government to court to fight things like the carbon tax. And Mr. Trudeau has imposed his carbon tax on provinces that don’t want to go along with his high-cost scheme. This carbon tax is increasing the cost of everyday essentials like gasoline, home heating, and groceries, and it will only go up after the next election. He is refusing to tell Canadians how high his carbon tax will go if he’s re-elected. The Conservative government under my leadership will scrap the carbon tax.
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Scheer, thank you. Ms. May.
Elizabeth May: Yeah, thank you, Susan, for the question. It’s very important. And as Greens, cooperation is in our DNA. None of the problems we solve are going – we face are going to be solved if we keep arguing and fighting with each other, whether it’s within Parliament in our different parties or between the federal government, the provinces and the territories.
The Greens are proposing a reinvigorated form of federalism. Modelled after what has been done in Australia, we want a council of Canadian governments. So the federal government, provincial, territorial, municipal, and the local orders of government need a seat at the table; so too do Indigenous leadership – First Nations, Métis, and Inuit – around the same table, finding common ground on urgent issues like health care, on the climate emergency, and working together in the public interest.
Lisa LaFlamme: OK, Ms. May. Thank you. Mr. Blanchet, your opportunity.
Yves-François Blanchet: Thank you. If I remember well, I’ve seen a study today about – from Mr. Eric Montigny saying that this campaign is not about federal issues but about provincial and Quebec issues. And this is not a surprise. If you want cooperation with provinces or Quebec, you need to respect the jurisdiction. And something that you have to stop doing – and this is one of the demands of the Government of Quebec in many – on many issues – is giving a hand to this – to s—our money being held hostage by the federal government and giving back to us with conditions. The money that has to be given to provinces in their own fields of jurisdiction should be given back without conditions.
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Blanchet, thank you. Mr. Trudeau, your opportunity now.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: In ten years of Stephen Harper’s government, he chose to stop meeting with Premiers in First Ministers’ meetings. And we restarted that when we took office in 2015. We were able to strengthen the CPP for a generation. We were able to sign historic health accords with massive investments in – in home care and in mental health. We were able to invest in infrastructure like housing and public transit across the country, and we continue to work with provinces on renegotiating a NAFTA that in—had everyone playing on one Team Canada.
But yes, with certain provinces right now, we are fighting on the defining issue of our time because Jason Kenney and Doug Ford and other Conservative Premiers don’t want to do anything on climate change. And we need a government in Ottawa that is going to fight them and fight for Canadians on climate change, and that’s exactly what we’re going to do.
Lisa LaFlamme: We will have the open debate coming up very shortly. We are going to switch gears now, though, and give a leader a chance to ask any other leader a question on any topic they choose. Again, the order of this was chosen by random draw. The first leader this time is NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh. Mr. Singh, you have 30 seconds.
Jagmeet Singh: Thank you. My question is to Mr. Trudeau. You know, you talk often about how Conservatives cut taxes for the wealthy and cut education and health care and other services. I’d agree with you, and I’ve heard you say this often. So my question is you criticize Mr. Harper on his climate targets but you failed to achieve them. You criticize Mr. Harper on the fact that he cut health care funding; you also cut them. You criticize Mr. Harper and Conservatives on giving billions to billionaires and corporations, but you gave $14 billion more. My question is this. Why do you keep letting down the people that voted for you?
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: First thing we did was cut taxes for the middle class and raise them for the wealthiest one percent. And on climate change, after ten years of Stephen Harper doing nothing, in just four years we’ve reached three-quarters of the way to our 2030 targets, which we will meet and surpass. But we know that’s not enough. We’re going to continue to do more, like planting two billion trees, like moving forward on giving money up front so people can retrofit their homes, on making Canada net-zero by 2050. We know how important it is to move forward, and right now Mr. Scheer has promised that the first thing he would do is rip up the only real plan to fight climate change that Canada has ever had.
These are the things we’re going to be moving forward on because Canadians expect us to. We lifted 900,000 people out of poverty with our investments in families, with the Canada Child Benefit, and things that actually, Mr. Scheer and Mr. Singh, the NDP voted against. We will continue to invest in families because it’s creating jobs and helping people out of poverty because that’s what Canadians expect, and that’s what we will continue to do.
Lisa LaFlamme: Now the leaders have an opportunity to have the open debate on this question. It’s for four minutes. Mr. Singh, you may begin.
Jagmeet Singh: Thank you. I just wanted to say, I mean, we look at the track record of this government, and in reality Statistics Canada points out in 2017 the wealthiest actually paid less in tax and gained more in wealth. And when we look at one of the biggest problems that we’re faced with as a country is offshore tax havens. Now, not only did your Finance Minister use offshore – offshore tax havens, but also the President —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: That’s not (crosstalk).
Jagmeet Singh: — of the Treasury Board. She also used offshore tax havens. So how can you tell Canadians we don’t have the money to fund things like universal pharmacare when your top two cabinet ministers don’t pay their fair share?
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Scheer, you might remember that – Mr. Singh, you might remember that summer (crosstalk) —
Jagmeet Singh: I’m very (crosstalk) Mr. Scheer.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: Our – we – you – we had a huge fight with the wealthiest Canadians and the Conservatives when we closed tax loopholes that Mr. Scheer is going to reopen and give tax breaks worth —
Hon Andrew Scheer: So let’s – let’s —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — $50,000 —
Hon Andrew Scheer: — let’s dive deep in that.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — to the wealthiest Canadians.
Hon Andrew Scheer: You —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: We’re going to keep moving forward —
Hon Andrew Scheer: — you (crosstalk) —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — in a way that invests in Canadians. And that (crosstalk) —
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Trudeau, we’ll give Mr. Scheer an opportunity to respond.
Hon Andrew Scheer: You called small business owners tax cheats. You called entrepreneurs who’ve created jobs and opportunities in our society tax cheats, all the while protecting your trust fund and those of your billionaire friends. What we are doing is lowering taxes for all Canadians. We’ve got a universal tax cut —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: And cutting services.
Hon Andrew Scheer: — that will lower the first bracket that will save (crosstalk) for the average income couple. We are going to bring in —
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Bernier —
Hon Andrew Scheer: — tax credits for kids’ sports —
Lisa LaFlamme: — would you like to interject?
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Yes, for sure. What they are doing, they are spending, spending, and spending.
Hon Andrew Scheer: Tax cuts are not spending.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Everybody here on this stage —
Hon Andrew Scheer: Ta—tax cuts are (crosstalk) —
Lisa LaFlamme: Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Everybody here on this stage –
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — are spending more money. And you know, you cannot create wealth when the government is spending money. You must have the right policies for the entrepreneur, actually. We want the private sector to be able to invest. The private sector works quite well.
Hon Andrew Scheer: That’s why we’re going to undo his tax hikes.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: No, you won’t – you won’t balance the budget. You – nobody will balance the budget —
Hon Andrew Scheer: We’re going to undo his tax hikes.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: I cannot understand —
Lisa LaFlamme: Ms. May, you’d like the opportunity.
Elizabeth May: Thank you. At the beginning of this segment, Mr. Singh pointed out that Mr. Trudeau has not changed the climate targets from those of Mr. Harper. It needs to be said very clearly, and I’m so disappointed because I believed the Liberals in 2015 that they would go with science-based, evidence-based policies. But the target —
Hon Andrew Scheer: Trudeau: not as advertised.
Elizabeth May: — that Mr. Trudeau is saying he will hit by 2030 is a target for losing the fight against climate change because it ignores the science, it ignores the IPCC advice. On this stage tonight, the Green Party’s the only party with a plan, mission possible, that will –
Elizabeth May: — actually protect us –
Jagmeet Singh: You know that’s not true.
Elizabeth May: It is true.
Jagmeet Singh: You know that’s not true.
Elizabeth May: Yours is 38 percent –
Jagmeet Singh: (Crosstalk plan) —
Elizabeth May: — below 2005.
Jagmeet Singh: Our plan is to stay in line – in line with science. Our plan is this.
Elizabeth May: Which science did you find that (crosstalk) target?
Jagmeet Singh: (Crosstalk). Our plan is in line with the IPCC report —
Elizabeth May: Yes.
Jagmeet Singh: It’s going to require the courage to fight big polluters. It’s going to take the courage to stand up to the (crosstalk) lobbyists that Mr. Trudeau has caved in to and the reason why we continue to pay subsidies to the fossil fuel sector.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. – Mr. Singh.
Jagmeet Singh: We would immediately end those subsidies —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Singh, Ms. May —
Jagmeet Singh: — if (crosstalk) government.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — (crosstalk) the experts are agreed that what a climate plan needs to do is to be ambitious and doable. And of the plans that are forward here on this stage, there’s only one plan that the experts have qualified as both ambitious and doable, and that is the plan that we have begun to put in place over the past four years.
Lisa LaFlamme: (Crosstalk) last word.
Hon Andrew Scheer: Mr. Trudeau’s plan is failing. It is making everything more expensive for hardworking Canadians, and he has granted a massive exemption to the country’s largest emitters.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: That’s not (crosstalk).
Hon Andrew Scheer: Our plan takes the climate change fight global, recognizing that Canada can do more to fight climate change by exporting our clean technology and helping other countries –
Hon Andrew Scheer: — lower their emissions –
Lisa LaFlamme: And that concludes – that is all the time we have for the open debate. That concludes this segment. (Laughter). You had an opportunity, you’ve got to jump right in. So thank you all very much for the conclusion of that segment.
THEME TWO: POLARIZATION, HUMAN RIGHTS, IMMIGRATION
Althia Raj: Hello. I’m Althia Raj from HuffPost Canada, and the theme of this segment is polarization, human rights, and immigration. And we’ll begin with my question to NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh. Mr. Singh, I want to ask you about Bill 21. Your campaign is about courage, but you have not shown the courage to fight Quebec’s discriminatory law. It bars individuals who, like yourself, wear religious symbols from some provincial employment. If you were Prime Minister, would you stand back and allow another province to discriminate against its citizens? Aren’t you – and, frankly, the other leaders on the stage – putting your own parties’ interests in Quebec ahead of your principles and the equality rights of all citizens? You have a minute to answer.
Jagmeet Singh: Sure. It’s probably pretty obvious to folks that I am obviously against Bill 21. It is something that hurts me, makes me feel sad. I think about all the times I grew up being told that I couldn’t do things because of the way I looked, and I think about all the people in Canada that grow up being told they can’t achieve more because of their identity or who they are. And I think about the people in Quebec right now that are being told, just because they wear hijab, that they can’t be a teacher, or, if they wear a yarmulke, they can’t be a judge, and that’s hurtful and it’s wrong.
And it probably comes as no surprise that I’m opposed to laws that divide people. What I do every single day when I go to Quebec is I say hey, I’m here, I’m someone that believes in fighting climate – the fli—fighting the climate crisis. I’m someone that believes in, firmly and unequivocally, the rights of women, the right of women to choose and to build more access to abortion services. I believe firmly in making sure we tackle the powerful corporations that are – that are influencing government and that are not allowing – that are challenging our ability to ensure that we build services that lift up people.
Althia Raj: Thank you.
Jagmeet Singh: I’m doing that every single day.
Althia Raj: Thank you. Mr. Scheer, you and Mr. Singh may debate this question.
Hon Andrew Scheer: Well, Mr. Singh, I just want to start off by congratulating you on the way that you have handled so many issues around race and identity. As someone who has been the victim of these types of – of racist acts in the past, I certainly believe you have handled it with a lot of class, especially as it relates to some of the scandals that have come out during this campaign.
I believe it’s very important for – for people to understand that, while we will not intervene in this court case as a Conservative government, we do recognize, and the Conservative Party always stands for freedom and equality and individual liberty, and we —
Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Scheer, if I —
Hon Andrew Scheer: — make sure that this does —
Jagmeet Singh: I – I appreciate that.
Hon Andrew Scheer: — and we will not pursue this type of bill —
Jagmeet Singh: I appreciate that.
Hon Andrew Scheer: — at the federal level.
Jagmeet Singh: I want to just touch on – on one of the themes of this discussion is polarization. And while Bill 21 is going to single out people because of the way they look, another thing that’s happening in our country right now is that people are being pit against each other. And what’s happening is people are – who are – can’t find a home, can’t afford their bills, can’t get the medication or health care they need are being told that it’s not the fault of powerful corporations and those who are not paying their fair share, but it’s the fault of new Canadians, it’s the fault of a twelyear—12-year-old refugee or an immigrant who’s breaking his back working 12 hours a day. And that’s why it’s so important for us to tackle economic insecurity if we want to tackle the polarization.
Althia Raj: Thank you, Mr. Scheer and Mr. Singh. Ms. May, you may debate Mr. Singh on this question.
Elizabeth May: Yeah, if – I want to also echo Andrew’s comments because I think that Jagmeet has done, as we all have done through this rather strange period of an election campaign, confronting issues of – of privilege. And anyone with white skin has privilege. But when we look at Bill 21 in Quebec, I think it challenges all of us. Like the NDP, the Green Party opposes Bill 21. And then we’re left with the question of what is the best way for a federal government to protect human rights within Quebec – Quebeckers are fighting this out within Quebec. Quebec groups are going to court to say that Bill 21 discriminates.
Jagmeet Singh: Elizabeth —
Elizabeth May: And as that goes forward —
Jagmeet Singh: — thank you very much.
Elizabeth May: — we are, frankly, looking at a situation where we don’t want to do anything that hurts —
Jagmeet Singh: I understand.
Elizabeth May: — that debate within Quebec.
Jagmeet Singh: I understand. But you know, what I – what I want to also just touch on, while Bill 21 is of course polarizing, on that point, I know you agree with me on this, that we’ve got to tackle those – the powerful corporations that are not paying their fair share, and that’s part of the reason why people aren’t able to earn a good living and part of the reason why people can’t find housing or they can’t get the medication they need, because those at the top aren’t paying their fair share —
Elizabeth May: It’s not even about paying their fair share.
Jagmeet Singh: — (crosstalk) we can’t build in —
Elizabeth May: I think we’ll agree on this —
Jagmeet Singh: — we can’t even build in the services we need.
Elizabeth May: — they have —
Althia Raj: OK, thank you very much.
Elizabeth May: — they have improper access —
Althia Raj: Ms. May, thank you.
Elizabeth May: — (crosstalk).
Althia Raj: Ms. May, thank you. Mr. Blanchet, your turn —
Yves-François Blanchet: Yes.
Althia Raj: — to debate Mr. Singh.
Yves-François Blanchet: With 70 percent —
Jagmeet Singh: I’ll give you more than ten seconds.
Yves-François Blanchet: You’re nice. With 70 percent of the population of Quebec supporting the Bill 21, and 70 percent of the Members of Parliament in Quebec supporting Bill 21, it’s not really a polarization issue in Quebec. That’s the problem. The problem is that – and in English tonight it will be quite clear everybody here has problems with the very idea of, I will say, laïcité because there’s no exact translation for that word in English. Everybody has a problem with it, but say in best of cases that they would tolerate it. But Quebec does not need to be told what to do or what not to do about its own value —
Jagmeet Singh: But Monsieur Blanchet —
Yves-François Blanchet: — nor its language —
Jagmeet Singh: But Monsieur Blanchet —
Yves-François Blanchet: — nor themselves as a nation.
Jagmeet Singh: — this – this is a bill that just says to people, because of the way they look, that they can’t do a job. That’s —
Yves-François Blanchet: You know this is —
Jagmeet Singh: — that’s wrong.
Yves-François Blanchet: — not true.
Jagmeet Singh: And instead – instead of that —
Yves-François Blanchet: Madame, we know this is not true. And your tweet that —
Jagmeet Singh: — instead – instead of that —
Yves-François Blanchet: — that said (crosstalk) —
Jagmeet Singh: — instead of that, Monsieur Blanchet, what we should be doing —
Yves-François Blanchet: — (crosstalk) the way people look was wrong.
Jagmeet Singh: Monsieur – Monsieur Blanchet, instead of what we should be doing is let’s protect women’s rights. Let’s build up more —
Yves-François Blanchet: (Crosstalk) —
Jagmeet Singh: — protections for —
Yves-François Blanchet: — (crosstalk)
Jagmeet Singh: — a woman’s right to choose.
Yves-François Blanchet: — (crosstalk) in the context I used it.
Jagmeet Singh: Let’s – let’s build up more protections for the LGTBQ community. Let’s build up more protections in society to build a society —
Yves-François Blanchet: (Crosstalk) —
Jagmeet Singh: — where is the separation —
Althia Raj: OK, thank you —
Jagmeet Singh: — of church and state.
Althia Raj: — Mr. Blanchet, thank you. Mr. Singh. Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Singh can debate this question.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Singh, you have spoken very eloquently about discrimination and fought against it all your life. And that’s why it’s so surprising to have heard you say, like every other leader on this stage, the federal government under you would not intervene in the kest—question of Bill 21 in Quebec. It’s a question where, yes, it’s awkward politically because, as Mr. Blanchet says, it is very popular. But I am the only one on this stage who has said yes, a federal government might have to intervene on this because the federal government needs to protect minority rights, needs to protect language rights, needs to protect women’s rights —
Jagmeet Singh: Of course.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — and needs to do that right across the country. You didn’t say that you would possibly intervene.
Jagmeet Singh: But Mr. Trudeau, I mean —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: You didn’t even leave the door open —
Jagmeet Singh: — (crosstalk) —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — and that’s not (crosstalk).
Jagmeet Singh: Let’s be honest for a second here. Every single day of my life is fighting a bill like Bill 21.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: So why won’t you —
Jagmeet Singh: Every single day of my life —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — fight it if you form government?
Jagmeet Singh: — is – every single day of my life is challenging people who think that you can’t do things because of the way you look. Every single day of my life I channel the frustrations of people who feel that as well, that many people across our country who are told that they can’t achieve what they want because of how they look.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: So why not act on your —
Jagmeet Singh: I’m running to become Prime Minister of this country —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — convictions —
Jagmeet Singh: — and I’m going to Quebec —
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — and leave the door open —
Jagmeet Singh: — and telling people I want to be your Prime Minister.
Rt. Hon. Justin Trudeau: — to challenging it?
Althia Raj: OK. Thank you, Mr. Trudeau, Mr. Singh. Mr. Bernier, your chance to go head to head with Mr. Singh.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: Yes. About the Bill 21, we must respect the Constitution. And we won’t interfere at the federal level. That’s the decision from the federal – from the provincial government. And that’s what we must do. But also, Mr. Singh, you said that you didn’t want me to be here on the stage to have a discussion with you. So you’re for diversity, but what about diversity of opinion? I have the right to have another opinion about immigration, and I don’t know why you’re not – you – you are a leader and you must be – try to have everybody on your side, but are you believing in free speech —
Jagmeet Singh: Let me answer that question. I can answer that question.
Hon. Maxime Bernier: — are you believing in free speech only when people are saying things that you want to hear?
Jagmeet Singh: You’re asking the question; let me answer it. After a couple of minutes of this debate tonight, I think people can clearly see why I didn’t think you should deserve a platform. The comments that you’re making, the type of things you say – it’s one thing to say that you disagree with somebody, that’s fine, but when you incite hatred —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: No, I don’t. No, I don’t.
Jagmeet Singh: — when you incite division —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: It’s not – you cannot say that.
Jagmeet Singh: — when you saying things (crosstalk) you insult a young girl —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: I just – I just want to have a debate.
Jagmeet Singh: — and ask about her mental stability, it shows a lack of judgment. You don’t deserve a platform, and I’m happy to challenge you on that because your pl—your ideas are hurtful to Canada. I will always work to build unity and bring people together, unlike you —
Hon. Maxime Bernier: (Crosstalk) for people who agree with you.
Althia Raj: OK, thank you very much. Merci, Monsieur Bernier. Thank you, Mr. Singh. Continuing with our theme of polarization, human rights, and immigration, we have people watching this debate right across the country, including a big crowd at the Student Union building at the University of British Columbia. And our next question comes from Paige McDicken (ph), who joins us from Vancouver. Please go ahead, Paige.
Question: Hi, good evening. (Cheers). Hi, good evening. My name is Paige McDicken, and I’m here tonight at UBC but I live in Cold Stream, British Columbia. My question is along the lines of polarization. And to me, Canada feels more divided than ever before. If diversity is our strength but division is weakness, how will your leadership seek to provide a unified vision for Canada, and how will you ensure that all voices across the political spectrum are heard and considered? Thank you.
Althia Raj: Mr. Singh, you may begin. You have 40 seconds.
Jagmeet Singh: ?