Donald Trump: “There has to be some form of punishment” for women who have abortions

Donald Trump said Wednesday that "there has to be some form of punishment" for women who have abortions. He walked that statement back dramatically just hours later, but not before causing a huge media firestorm.

Trump was talking to MSNBC's Chris Matthews for a pretaped town hall in Wisconsin to be aired Wednesday night, according to Bloomberg, which posted excerpts of the interview. MSNBC's Irin Carmon also tweeted more complete rough transcript excerpts.

Matthews repeatedly pressed Trump on his anti-abortion views and asked if women should be criminally punished if abortion were outlawed in the US.

Trump hedged at first: "Well, people in certain parts of the Republican Party, and conservative Republicans, would say, ‘Yes, it should be punished.'"

"How do you ban abortion?" Matthews asked. "How do you actually do it?"

"You'll go back to a position like they had, where people perhaps will go to illegal places," Trump said. "But we have to ban it." (It's not totally clear what he means by this, but it sounds like he's saying there is a moral obligation to ban abortion, even though women would still seek alternative and often dangerous procedures like they did before Roe v. Wade was passed.)

Matthews pressed again: "Do you believe in abortion or no as a principle?"

"The answer is there has to be some form of punishment," Trump said.

"For the woman?" Matthews said.

Trump said, "Yes," and nodded. Matthews pressed further: 10 days or 10 years? Trump said he didn't know, and that it's "complicated."

"It will have to be determined," Trump said.

"What about the guy that gets her pregnant?" Matthews asked.

Trump said again: "And it hasn't been determined."

Matthews: "Is he responsible under the law for these abortions? Or is he not responsible for an abortion decision?"

Trump stumbled a bit, then settled on: "I would say no."

Trump also talked about how this presidential election will be important in determining who replaces Antonin Scalia on the Supreme Court, and that "nobody knows what the law is going to be" until then.

The mainstream pro-life movement disagrees with Trump on criminal punishments for women

Trump has faced criticism for his history of pro-choice stances, which he now disavows. But he still tends to say things that go against the Republican orthodoxy on abortion, like offering qualified praise of the work Planned Parenthood does for women's health.

This exchange could be Trump overcompensating for that perception, because the idea of prosecuting women for having abortions is definitely not something the pro-life movement is willing to publicly advocate.

"Mr. Trump's comment today is completely out of touch with the pro-life movement and even more with women who have chosen such a sad thing as abortion," said Jeanne Mancini, president of the March for Life Education and Defense Fund, in a statement. "No pro-lifer would ever want to punish a woman who has chosen abortion."

Mainstream anti-abortion advocates usually insist that women should not be thrown in jail for having abortions because they are in fact "second victims" of the procedure. These advocates maintain that women won't go to jail if abortion is made illegal again. Instead, anti-abortion laws target doctors who perform the procedures.

Women can already be prosecuted for abortion in America

It's true that the abortion restrictions on the books right now mostly target doctors. But it's unfortunately not true that women would never be thrown in jail for abortion in America. Even today in the post-Roe era, women who have miscarriages but who are suspected of self-inducing an abortion outside of a doctor's care sometimes face criminal charges.

Last year, Purvi Patel of Indiana was the first woman to be sentenced to jail in the US for the crime of "feticide" for allegedly terminating her own pregnancy. She is now serving a 20-year sentence, which she is still appealing.

But that doesn't mean she was the first woman criminally charged, nor was she the last. National Advocates for Pregnant Women has documented hundreds of cases of women whose pregnancy outcomes have led to their criminal prosecution.

The charges vary from manslaughter to "improper disposal of fetal remains." Anna Yocca was initially charged with first-degree murder late last year for giving herself a coat hanger abortion in Tennessee, but prosecutors have dropped those charges. They still might charge her with aggravated assault, though, and she's been sitting in jail since December.

This happens even in states that explicitly prohibit criminal charges against women for ending their own pregnancies.

Again, mainstream anti-abortion organizations typically don't say that this is a desirable outcome. The same can't always be said of their grassroots supporters, though, even those who have bylines at major media outlets. And perhaps Trump is trying to appeal to that more militant grassroots base.

The response to Trump's comments was swift and intense

Both Democratic presidential candidates immediately blasted Trump's remarks:

So did Planned Parenthood. "Donald Trump is flat-out dangerous," said Dawn Laguens, executive vice president of the Planned Parenthood Action Fund, in a statement. "Women’s lives are not disposable. There’s nothing else to say, as Donald Trump’s remarks today have said it all."

Even Ohio Gov. John Kasich — who has his own extreme record on abortion — pushed back, saying, "Of course women shouldn't be punished" for having an abortion.

Sen. Ted Cruz's spokesperson accused Trump of failing to understand the pro-life position:

Don't overthink it: Trump doesn't understand the pro-life position because he's not pro-life.

— Brian Phillips (@RealBPhil) March 30, 2016

Shortly after news of Trump's comments broke, his campaign released a statement attributed to Trump, which didn't actually clarify his position on criminal prosecutions or penalties for women.

"This issue is unclear and should be put back into the states for determination," Trump said in the statement. "Like Ronald Reagan, I am pro-life with exceptions, which I have outlined numerous times."

Then Trump addressed the criminal prosecution issue more specifically on Twitter:

Be fair, was asked if it was ILLEGAL should there be punishment. Shouldn't there be consequences for breaking laws? https://t.co/FcR0IReRM5

— Donald Trump Jr. (@DonaldJTrumpJr) March 30, 2016

Finally, he released a statement that seemed to walk back the whole thing. Trump said that the doctor, not the woman, would be held criminally responsible if abortion were made illegal:

If Congress were to pass legislation making abortion illegal and the federal courts upheld this legislation, or any state were permitted to ban abortion under state and federal law, the doctor or any other person performing this illegal act upon a woman would be held legally responsible, not the woman. The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb. My position has not changed - like Ronald Reagan, I am pro-life with exceptions.

Donald Trump put on a master class in victim blaming